Dave Boland of Ogletree Deakins joins Sean Coleman and Pete Wright to talk about undertaking major a intranet upgrade under the cloud of a global pandemic, sharing the highs, the lows, and lessons learned along the way.
Today on the show we’re talking about an intranet upgrade. Ogletree Deakins is a law firm specializing in labor and employment, and over the last few years, Chief Knowledge Officer Dave Boland and team have been working to move from SharePoint 2010 to SharePoint Online, replacing their old enterprise search and integrating the firm’s search needs under one banner, all available across a wide selection of devices for a diverse set of users.
This meant, of course, integrating with other firm systems: document management systems, client matters, intranet content, firm expertise, and more, and doing it all in a simple, seamless interface.
Today, Dave Boland joins Pete Wright and Sean Coleman, our Senior Director of Operations, to talk about the Ogletree project, the BA Insight partnership, and lessons learned along the way.
Senior Director of Operations
Chief Knowledge Officer, Ogletree Deakins
Pete Wright: Hello everybody, and welcome to Shared Insights from Upland BA Insight on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright. And today on the show, we’re talking about an intranet upgrade.
Pete Wright: Ogletree Deakins is a law firm specializing in labor and employment. And over the last few years, Chief Knowledge Officer Dave Boland and team have been working to move from SharePoint 2010 to SharePoint Online, replacing their old enterprise search and integrating the firm’s search needs under one banner available on a wide selection of computing devices. This meant of course, integrating search across document management systems, client matters, intranet content, firm expertise, and more, and doing it all in a simple seamless interface. Oh, and did I mention they were to do it all under the cloud of a global pandemic?
Pete Wright: Today I sit down with Dave Boland alongside Sean Coleman, our Senior Director of Operations, to talk about the Ogletree project, the BA Insight partnership, and lessons learned along the way. Thanks for joining us on Shared Insights this week. We’re glad you’re here.
Pete Wright: Dave Boland, welcome to the show. Let’s get right into it. You recently completed an intranet upgrade. Doing this at the scale of one of the largest labor and employment law firms representing management has to present, I imagine, an extraordinary lift. Can you give us a sense of the project from a high level? What were you living with and how did you know it was time to move?
Dave Boland: Yeah, I appreciate that, Pete. It was a heavy lift. It not only entailed an intranet upgrade from SharePoint 2010 to move to the cloud, so that in and itself was a big lift, but it also was clear to us that we needed to replace our enterprise search capabilities and intranet upgrade that into the cloud and integration with SharePoint as well. We also had a chatbot that needed to be upgraded. So by the time you add all of these pieces and parts together, it was quite a significant lift for the team.
Pete Wright: Now, I know this was part, as I understand it, of Ogletree’s digital transformation strategy. How does the overall strategy play into what you’ve accomplished?
You know, we have really referred to this project as a digital workspace, that this is really the primary engagement channel with and for our people. This is where they start the day. This is where they have access to the various resources that they need to do their daily activities. It’s also the place where they will collaborate with others as well. And so as part of that digital transformation, it’s taking away some of the barriers that existed. Requiring to be on a firm laptop, requiring to be on VPN, it begins to untether things that make that experience not only an easier and better experience, but also it facilitates us our ability to move quickly and improve our velocity.
Pete Wright: Okay. You’ve just said a couple of things that I want to dive in on a little bit. The first of which is the migration to the cloud liberating you from some legacy technology, including all the way down to individual equipment that you give the attorneys. Are you already starting to see dividends being paid on this?
Dave Boland: I would say we are seeing dividends, but it is a slow process. Our most advanced and technology astute attorneys are really thrilled with what’s available to them. And it’s a sense of freedom that they have to be able to leverage or use their mobile devices, be it their tablets or their phones, to be able to get to information quickly. We’re hearing as our leading shareholders or I would say our more digitally astute shareholders, they’re really excited about the path that we are on. For others, it’s still a process. It’s a learning process, an educating process that they can do certain things that they were unable to do previously. And so it’s trying to not manage to the lowest common denominator, but to bring those folks along. And I think that’s all part of the change management process that in all candor we’re all going through as we adopt some of the advanced technologies that are so incredibly powerful and is part of a mindset of being able to embrace the change, to embrace a lot of these technologies that might not be as familiar.
Sean Coleman: I’ll add something onto that because I think, Dave, what you just hit on there, the mindset. Because I mean, we’ve helped a number of different firms. And I can tell you that the Ogletree project with you guys was really transformational for us and your organization. I think the big thing that we saw from the beginning was the mindset of your team, the team that you had put together, the focus that they had, the ideas that they had around what that attorney experience was going to be. For all the attorneys, even your most technical to your not most technical. Dave’s team that he put together thought about it from all aspects and really pushed to say, “We need to make sure that we can have these great capabilities, but it also needs to make sense. It needs to be able on their mobile. It needs to be here.” And I kind of credit that vision and direction.
Sean Coleman: I see a lot of firms that kind of come out and they say, “Well, we need search and just kind of give us the basics of there.” The basics weren’t going to work at the Ogletree team. They had a vision that they wanted and they really stuck to it and really drove to that. I think it’s a Testament to the team that they put together and a testament to the outcome that they had that mindset from the beginning. And they didn’t compromised. “This is what we’re going for.” And we loved it. We enjoyed working with them. I mean, it was great.
Pete Wright: When did you call this intranet upgrade project complete?
Dave Boland: So we launched our beta product in September. Actually, it was September 15th of ’21. Essentially it had been about a little over a year long project, but it wasn’t until about four or five months into that project that the prior search solution that had been a long standing project, candidly, a standalone project so it wasn’t integrated with the vision of the intranet or our digital workspace, that it became clear that that was not a viable solution for us. And so we very quickly did a hard pivot and sent out an RFP, which included BA Insight. That would’ve been in November of ’20. And in December, through a fast tracked RFP process, we selected BA Insight and started development work in January.
Dave Boland: As part of that effort, one of the key requirements we had is that it had to be integrated with SharePoint Online to be an integrated user experience. We were also targeting about a three to four month window initially to get search stood up. The timing actually became more dependent on the intranet upgrade project than it did on the implementation of search. And so what we really appreciated about BA Insight was the ability to move very quickly to understand what our requirements were and execute on those. And what moved beyond the original timeframe was actually the intranet upgrade to SharePoint Online that took… We ran into some complexities that had that project go out a little bit longer.
Pete Wright: At no point have you used the word pandemic, and yet you are doing a major initiative over the course of two years that were incredibly complicated from the perspective of the workforce. Do you have any reflection on how it was impacted? All I can say in my head is, “Man, they must have had to hustle to make this work.”
Dave Boland: I appreciate you saying that Pete, because I think that the context in which this project was executed is easily forgotten or overshadowed. I came from a consulting firm background where many of our people worked in a remote status or at least had the ability to work remotely. What was quite different when I came to Ogletree in June of ’20, that was not the norm, that was not normative and most people were accustomed to going into the office. So you’ve got this huge dynamic that’s going on that’s not only adding a level of anxiety and uncertainty into just everybody’s day to day life. But on top of that, you’ve got people who aren’t accustomed to working in a remote work environment that that is now norm.
Dave Boland: And to be able to do that, I just have tremendous respect for the team that I have the pleasure of overseeing to be able to adapt and to embrace new tools, tools like Zoom or Teams, not only for internal collaboration, but the ability to collaborate with vendors across multiple time zones in various locations. But maybe most importantly is continue to drive execution forward. When I pause and think about it, it is absolutely remarkable to have a project of this magnitude, of this complexity and do it all from a remote perspective is just probably one of the highlights of my career.
Sean Coleman: I can’t do anything but second that, because I know there are times in the projects, and I’ve led projects for years when you got into a hard spot and the answer was, “Let’s put everybody in a room on site and let’s figure this out,” right? And you didn’t have that. There wasn’t that go to like, “Well, let’s put everybody on a Zoom. We need to stay in a Zoom,” I mean, this is times where you were getting exhausted from all days sitting on these Zooms, but we did. The teams did it. Your team, our team, all the teams that got into it, I think. And the coolest part about it is, because I was in a number of the meetings, I know you were too Dave, was just the positiveness. Everything was going on. I mean the world was split upside down, but we saw the same smiles. We saw the same “How are you doing?”
Sean Coleman: I mean, even though the teams haven’t really officially met in person that many times, maybe once or twice now if at all, I think real friendships were built. And I can’t wait. We’ve got things coming up, like ILTACON and things like that. We’re going to see people that maybe it was the first time I physically met them, but I feel like I’ve known them for years, right? Which is, it’s just a great part about the project.
Dave Boland: It really is. And that dynamic goes beyond just, “Oh, I’ve never met these folks at BA Insight” or at some of the other vendors that we are working with as part of the development effort. But even internally I joined Ogletree during the pandemic. I had not met most of my team. And so all of that relationship building and comradery… And I think what I hear you saying Sean and I completely agree, is the shared vision and the shared commitment to get this done. Again, I’m humbled by the efforts of the team to be able to execute in that environment and that context and to do it so well and so professionally. And to your point Sean, it was such an optimism. It really stands out.
Pete Wright: I think that context is everything for a project like this, particularly when you start drilling down into the specific deliverables of the project. I want to have you do just a quick rundown for us for what you were trying to accomplish. Maybe as we wrap up, we’ll be able to come back around, because my sense is that as a result of some of these tools and technologies that are in place, the post pandemic behavior change might be continually enabled and supported by some of these tools. So that’s what’s kind of tickling the back of my mind here. But when we talk about the specific goals of your new search infrastructure, how do you run down the top level there?
Dave Boland: I think it starts with kind of what the state of our search capabilities were going into this effort. So there were things that we needed to maintain. There were things that we needed to keep the lights on. So it wasn’t just starting with a blank sheet of paper, but it actually defined for us kind of what the minimum requirements needed to be or the minimum bar that we needed to reach before we could actually launch something out to our users. What that entailed is, previously the search was a standalone experience. It was separate and distinct from the intranet. And so we knew that we wanted that to be a unified experience. It was actually called a separate product. And we just wanted that to be, “Hey, this is just the search on the digital workspace. It’s that simple and it’s that easy to understand.”
Dave Boland: But part of the scope of the search needed to include indexing and searching across our document management system, which was I manage. It also needed to include searching across our clients and matters which also entailed integrating with our financial system. We had intranet content, so stuff that was sitting in different SharePoint repositories that we needed to make sure was included. And then also being able to search our people, people profiles and people directory, those types of things. That really became the minimum requirement for us to say, “We can go live with that capability.”
Dave Boland: And there’s a lot of complexities when you start integrating with a DMS system, with a financial system. I think that’s another thing that really stood out for us with BA Insight, is a lot of the connectors that were part of the technology made that a lot easier conversation. And to know that BA Insight had already paved the way and connecting to these systems was something that we could rely on and had a high level of trust.
Dave Boland: The approach that we took in releasing our digital workspace in September was to actually release under a beta positioning. And then we actually ran parallel with the existing system for 90 days. And what that allowed us to do is to release something and position it as allowed us to get feedback from users and very quickly make adjustments on the fly. And then after that 90 day period, be able to unplug or decommission the preexisting system. And so I think there was an approach that served us very well. It allows us to move more quickly and it allowed us to be very engaged with our users to get feedback and then be responsive to the feedback that we receive.
Pete Wright: Okay. And accessibility from different devices and locations. You’ve already brought up mobile. You want to make sure people can access from phones and tablets in addition to their devices.
Dave Boland: That’s right. I have the real pleasure of working with a very forward thinking CIO. We are, as a firm, moving forward with our cloud strategy. And so this was in keeping and right in line with our path to get to the cloud. And so it was really nice to not have to make that argument or enter into a debate as to whether the cloud or on-prem was the right solution. It was, well, do we want to be forward thinking and how we look at these challenges in services that we’re trying to deliver to our customers or to our users.
Pete Wright: I’m looking at Sean here because he and I have had conversations over the years about the complexity of the decision to move to the cloud versus on-prem. And it feels like this is the first conversation where we’ve talked to somebody who’s the entire organization is like, “We’re just enthusiastically in favor of the cloud. We’re ready. We are ready to do this.”
Sean Coleman: Yeah, and it’s great. I mean, that was a when the Ogletree team and the support of the IT group and the CIO with that cloud first strategy, I think what it gives them is flexibility and the ability to deploy. Whatever they need is, we were able to if you think about old projects where you’re on-prem, “Well, okay, we’re going to do this project” and David say, “Okay, go. It’s January. We need something in four months.” Traditionally, you’d spend two and a half months ordering servers.
Pete Wright: Right.
Sean Coleman: Those spun up things. Now it’s like, “Okay, the next week it’s like we’ve got cloud resources up and operational. Let’s put software down and let’s start configuring it.” I mean, it’s great when you get that way. I want to pitch back just a second on something David said, because there’s a really cool story to go along with the idea that they delivered the intranet and the search together in one interface, right? And you don’t know, is it going to make sense? Is it going to be clear to people?
Sean Coleman: Well, we happen to have another gentleman that I work with, his daughter is a attorney at Ogletree. So he works. So this sales guy, he messages me the other day and he goes… And this is a true story. He says, “Hey, I’m here with my daughter. She didn’t know anything about BA Insight.” Well, so of course she doesn’t, because she knows about OD connect, which is where our technology… As a user, you don’t need to know about BA Insight. You just need to know what to do. And he goes, “Well, she doesn’t know how to use it.” I said, “Well, does she go on the intranet?” “Yeah. Yeah.” “Does she go to the search bar in the upper right and search for stuff?” “Absolutely. She’s doing it right now.” And I said, “Well, she’s using our stuff. She just doesn’t know it.”
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Sean Coleman: Which is exactly the concept that David and team set out to do, which is “Let’s deliver capability to you in a cohesive fashion that it’s delivering you what you want.” You don’t even recognize that you’re actually using two different pieces of technology there.
Dave Boland: It’s great. And to pile onto that story, Sean, I know the individual that you’re referring to. She actually sent me a personal email within, I think it was the day that we launched. It specifically referring to the search capability and said, “This is transformational.” And so to your point, yeah, it might not be emblazed with BA Insight or what technologies and the pieces and parts that we’re using, because at the end of the day, it really is all about the user in delivering the services to meet the needs that they have. So it’s a great story.
Sean Coleman: I think it’s great because we tell like one of our things is if you have a solution like this, you got to own it, you got to brand it, you got to message it. It’s got to be a thing that people come… And it’s not the technology that matters. It’s the message and the capability that matters, right? Deliver to that. And then the technology behind it, what database is that? What is this? In users don’t need to know that. They just need to know it works. And I think the fact that you’re able to deliver something like that and pull together. And what Pete was talking about, pull together DMS data, pull together people data, pull together client data, matter data. Those are like nine different systems that all have different interfaces and all this.
Sean Coleman: And now the attorneys just go in… what they’re looking for and they get fed it in one interface. They don’t have to worry about all the other stuff. When you say transformational, that’s what I think about in the fact that how much time we save and how much capability we drive when we do pull all that stuff together.
Pete Wright: In terms of the technology that you’ve connected together, as Sean says, all these different systems that you’ve brought together. Were you just replacing the backend technology that actually ties those together? Or do you find that you’ve been able to connect more sources in this more simplified interface than before? Is that a fair question? Does it make sense?
Dave Boland: It does make sense, Pete. I think as I mentioned, we had kind of a minimum requirement that we had to meet before we could actually open the doors or release anything to our customers. But the thing that excited us equally, if not more, was the ability to extend and expand what search means to us here at the firm. For instance, after we launched the search that included the DMS, the client matters, our internet content and our people, we quickly pivoted and started looking at this area of experience or who are the experts in the firm. And that actually taps into several different data sources and begins to actually run through an algorithm to produce here’s who, in looking at these different sources, is the answer to your search question, who has experience with this with X, who is the expert in the firm in Y?
Dave Boland: And so that’s something that we just recently released. I know we were talking about what we initially released back in September, but several months ago, three months ago, we released yet an extension or an expansion of that search capability. We also have the ability to include our public website information. And so our vision here around search is to include meaningful sources of content that our lawyers need to effectively do their job. That they’re not having to bounce around a four or five different data systems or sources of content to do unique searches. But we bring that all in one unified experience and make it very easy to traverse across those source domains.
Pete Wright: Well, this gets to the question about user success, and in fact, your success on the project. How do you know it was a home run? Obviously you get individual notes from satisfied users, but what are you seeing in terms of reduction of time searching, reduction of frustration and trouble tickets? How are you measuring that all the work has been, for lack of a better word, worth it?
Dave Boland: So some of the feedback we’ve heard from our users of what they’ve really appreciated and valued as part of this implementation, we’ve talked about it, but they really have appreciated that fully integrated experience baked into the digital workspace, not a separate destination. And then just a significant ease of use. Reduced confusion and the ability to easily navigate across content source domains. That unified search, the dynamic aspect of that has been very much appreciated. Many of our users have called out the suggested or recommended terms. We refer to that as kind of the type ahead, it has been very helpful. Having search history, being able to have favorite searches. And then I think something that BA Insight does extremely well is the enhanced filtering once they get the search results. That can even include some of the smart preview that we have for some of our document management search results, is to go in and do a smart preview and even get a heat map of where frequency of term shows up throughout that document. That’s one of my personal favorites, but we hear that from our users as well.
Dave Boland: We’ve also found that, again back to the mobile, people have really appreciated that they can access this through their mobile device. One of the things that has been a huge benefit for us in implementing this new technology is the ability to now see and understand user behavior. So when we had a user before say, “I’m having trouble with search, or it’s not working for me,” you don’t know immediately if that’s a technology issue, a user issue, or what exactly is going on. Today when we get that call and someone says, “I’m struggling with this, or I’m having a challenge with a certain aspect of search,” we have the ability to go in and look explicitly at what that user is doing, what they’re searching on. In some cases, it highlights to us some fine tuning, some relevancy tuning that we can do. That’s very informative for us. In other cases, it’s shown us that this person has put in a search string that isn’t necessarily what they were looking for. What it revealed to us is that they needed some additional training on how to use search.
Pete Wright: In the launch of this project through the end of 2021 and early 2022, what sort of investment did you find you had to do to train people up?
Dave Boland: We did a variety of things. Because folks were still operating in a pandemic, there wasn’t really a road show per se, and so we did a lot of recorded sessions. We had live sessions that people could join what you might refer to or think of as office hours. So “Come join us at these times. We’re available to answer any questions.” But I think the intent was to create some micro learnings, some videos, 90-second, two minute videos that people could tap into. We also had other materials, so frequently asked questions or quick start cards, things like that that would be more traditional all available digitally. And then continuing to follow up with individuals I think in knowledge management. Sometimes it’s about converting one soul at a time. That one on one interaction is incredibly helpful, not only for the individual who might be struggling or learning some new skills, but really helpful for us to also know how we need to adapt, how we need to calibrate and where we need to take action to make that a better experience.
Sean Coleman: When David goes back and says, “When a user comes in and didn’t find what they were looking for, we look at the analytics” I mean, that’s a key part of it. But when you continue to grow this, the next thing we’re looking at is, “Well, what we’ve realized is why would the user ask about it in that way? We never predicted that,” right? But then you peel back the onion and you talk to them and say, “Well, why did you ask in that way?” And they explain it to and you’re like, “Okay, it makes sense that this group of people talks about things in a different way that this group of people does.” But all the content we have is kind of in one language, so that’s when we start talking about, “Well, let’s personalize that experience.” We recognize who that user is. We can adjust to the way in which they describe what they’re looking for, which is totally different than an attorney. So it kind of goes back to what you had said, Pete, earlier when it was, “Well, when is it done?” And I immediately thought, “Well, it’s never done.”
Pete Wright: It’s never done. Right. Yes.
Sean Coleman: Right? It’s never done.
Pete Wright: My bad.
Sean Coleman: Because first thing is done, but the next one is, “Okay, well, let’s make it even better for this group and then that group.” And what’s great is that the Ogletree team, through those analytics, sees that, raises that and goes, “Okay, we really see our researchers need help here and our attorneys need it here.” And you get the flexibility to then say, “Okay, let’s do some natural language query. Let’s do some analysis here. Let’s personalize these things on top of what we’ve got. We got the core platform that has all the data and all the access and the cube that you can turn any way you want. And now let’s go right at the users and adjust their experience so that we continue to drive that kind of satisfaction up and people going ‘I don’t know how it knew what I meant, but yet it got me what I was looking for’.” That’s where we want to be.
Dave Boland: And that’s a great point. I think it is evergreen. We have tried to position it that way within the firm. This is something that continually needs refining and enhancements and adding new data sources. But you make a really good point that it now puts us in the position to be much more surgical in how we do our training, where a few years ago if you did a training, you just kind of did broad brush strokes, it was the same message to every individual. Now we are able to tailor that in a much more…. I use the term surgical because we have a level of precision that we’ve never had before, a level of insight that we’ve never had before that really allows us to start the conversation at step 5, 6 or 7, as opposed to step 1 or 2. And that’s really valued by our users. We have limited time, they’re very busy. And so when we can focus those conversations on things that are most meaningful, it’s a win for everybody.
Pete Wright: Well, it sounds like it’s also quite a win for Ogletree Deakins winning the ILTA Transformative Project of the Year Award.
Dave Boland: It’s a big deal for us. We were so honored and humbled to be recognized in that capacity. Of course, from my perspective, I felt like the team was incredibly deserving, but to be recognized in that capacity is really an honor. And it’s a testament to the great work, not only by the KM team and our IT team, and many members here at Ogletree, but also the quality of partners that we are working with like BA Insight.
Pete Wright: Last question is a personal one for you. How did you know when this was going to be a hit? Do you remember the moment when you were able to sit down and do something that you hadn’t been able to do before, and it was transformative for you personally?
Dave Boland: Part of my job is to cast a vision. And as part of that vision, I have to believe in that vision. And so I hope that’s part of what I bring to my team and to our partners that we work with, is an unwavering belief and optimism that we are going to achieve this vision. We may have a circuitous path, but we will reach our vision. I think specifically to your question, maybe where did it begin to materialize or where did I have this sense of like, “Yes.” I think it’s when I was able to pull a lot of this up, even on our development environment, on my tablet and on my phone. And that’s when I knew we are on a great path here in that we’ve got the right vision here that positions us. We’re future proofing what we’re doing here within the organization.
Pete Wright: I had told you I wanted to loop back around to this cultural conversation, especially now that we’re normalizing in this post pandemic universe. How do you think the behavior of your users is enabled or changed as a result of some of the technologies you’ve put into place here?
Dave Boland: It’s made things easier, more straightforward, and more intuitive. And so anytime, I can find what I’m looking for in one experience and easily navigate to that content and take all the questions out of having to know, “I need this login, this password” or, “Oh, that’s over in that product over there, or this product over here,” but it brings it all together and it’s personalized. And so it’s gone the step beyond just the centralization, but it’s taken the additional step of personalization that’s bringing forward things that are most relevant to them. I need knowledge management to improve signal to noise. I need you to bring forward those things that are most relevant to me based on what you know about me so that I don’t have to filter through the wheat and the chaff, so to speak.
Dave Boland: And that’s a journey. I don’t think that’s something that we have a long way to go still in being able to do that. But setting that distribution channel in place, that personalized experience and digital workspace, having that in place now allows us to take full advantage of some of that capability. And it allows us to move now at a velocity in a gear that we’ve never had before. And so having the flexible technology allows us to make connections that we wouldn’t be able to make. And advanced technology is going to help us do that and help pave the way for us in that regard.
Sean Coleman: I think one of the key things that I’ve seen out of the ODConnect tool, and if you think about just way things used to be versus the way things are now, it’s that speed to value or execution or my job, right? So how much time am I spending getting ready to do my job versus actually doing it? And then when I’m actually doing it, can I get to a quality decision faster, right? How do you get people to a quality decision faster? You bring more data to their fingertips, you bring data with context. You bring it and you wrap it around experience and you wrap it around all the other things that you’ve got. So I didn’t have to go to all these different systems to do it. And then when I asked my question, I got fed all these other things.
Sean Coleman: It’s all of that speed to value or speed to deliver what I’ve been tasked to do is the key point of what they were able to pull off with ODConnect. It’s tremendous, right? You build a framework now that almost becomes table stakes, but it’s like, “Well, of course I should be able to get in here. Now, what can you do for me?” And I think Dave, that’s what we’re hoping that you come up with the next thing to help us get there, because we’re counting on you.
Dave Boland: In looking at just the first four months of 2022, we’ve seen a 20% increase as it relates engagement on ODConnect, our digital workspace over last year. The numbers of the firm haven’t grown substantially. And so when you look at a 20% increase of the number of average daily visits that we have, that’s significant. Our chat bot today is answering on the average about 160 questions a day and answering those in a meaningful way that’s getting people answers that they need in a very quick response. We’re seeing almost 900 searches on average conducted each and every day. And so the numbers and the metrics that we’re seeing are really solid. That search is roughly four minutes in duration. So that’s a tricky metric to look at. To see whether that’s the right number or not is tricky, but when we look at successful searches versus unsuccessful searches, we’re really encouraged by what we’re seeing the user metrics to reveal.
Pete Wright: We’re thrilled to hear the success and the change inside the organization, and just deeply grateful that you are here talking to us about it today. Thank you. And on behalf of Sean Coleman, our senior director of operations here at Upland BA Insight, we appreciate all of the time and attention to everybody who has downloaded and listening to this show. We appreciate you, and we’ll see you next time right here on Shared Insights, the podcast from BA Insight.